The Mount Royal University hat incident and the fallout

61 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2016-09-17 00:10

Boze

So, a couple of days ago at Mount Royal University, this happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5sosSHLt_c

If you don't want to or can't watch it, a student was directed by a fellow student to remove his "Make America Great Again" hat, on the grounds that the hat constituted "hate language" in a "safe space." He was told that this directive was backed by the President of the University. To be clear, he wasn't being asked to remove his hat, he was being told that he's not allowed to wear the hat. This is caught on camera by another student who champions the hat-wearer's right to wear the hat. Then another student, who apparently can't handle the conflict, yells for the hat-wearer and the guy filming the confrontation to "just go" - he then takes the hat from the guy and walks off, again directing the Trump supporter to "just leave."

Predictably, the vast majority of commenters feel that she overreacted...to say the least. Watching this video almost made me want to wear the Trump hat in solidarity with the guy. Almost, but not quite. A younger version of me would definitely have wanted to wear the hat.

I felt it was a missed opportunity. Instead of having a conversation about why Trump is so odious, it turned into a conversation about whether the student should or should not be allowed to wear the hat. Of course, the end result of that conversation is predictable - most people are going to reflexively defend freedom of expression, especially something so innocuous. But I feel there is another conversation to be had here.

There's a growing backlash on the internet against the phenomenon of the "SJW" or social justice warrior. The first time I heard this term I thought it was ludicrous, but I wasn't surprised. I mean, hasn't the internet always been a reactionary place? Why would anybody find a term like that an insult? I'd rather be a social justice wizard, in any case. Well, in the last year I've become convinced that some of these "SJWs" are indeed starting to give social justice causes a bad name and that the reactionary backlash is spreading beyond the internet. We discussed this in one of my classes today and most students do seem to feel that so-called "SJWs" are becoming a problem. I don't think they're really becoming the problem that their opponents like to say they are. Videos like this are just the low-hanging fruit that the internet loves to get angry about. Yeah, ridiculous people are gonna be ridiculous but most people won't stand for it. But when it makes the average person, who can't even define social justice (which I grew up thinking of as stuff like economic justice for marginalized groups) start to get a bad impression of completely reasonable things like "trigger warnings" on videos that show scenes of graphic violence, or "safe spaces," I start to worry. When I was young and first going to university my house was a "safe space," it meant that you could come out as gay or trans and not worry about being judged or beaten up or exposed. Now people think that "safe space" means a place where anything we find politically objectionable won't be tolerated - and not only that, they want this definition to extend to the entire university campus? Of course this generates opposition.

How do we take this conversation back from the right-wing? How do we deal with authoritarians in our midst? I take for granted that the ends don't justify the means and that the left absolutely must be committed to freedom of speech and freedom of expression to avoid looking like the bad guys.

Regions:

Sat, 2016-09-17 00:29

NorthReport

I'm glad she spoke up. It's bad enough people support a racist Trump who is suggesting Hillary be assassinated in the USA, but in Canada too - yikes!

Let's hear if for the social justice warrior movement

Sat, 2016-09-17 01:06

Boze

NorthReport wrote:
I'm glad she spoke up. It's bad enough people support a racist Trump who is suggesting Hillary be assassinated in the USA, but in Canada too - yikes! Let's hear if for the social justice warrior movement

Facepalm.

I would have been glad she spoke up too, if she hadn't told him he must remove the hat. There's a world of difference between "please take that off" or "you should really take that off" and "You need to take that off, I've already spoken with the University President and if you don't take it off or leave, you'll be speaking with him soon as well."

Trump is the Republican candidate. This is not that much different from saying people aren't allowed to wear Conservative Party hats.

edit: more importantly it should be obvious to anyone that shit like this makes us look bad. If you think Trump hats should be banned on University campuses the general population is going to see you as an authoritarian, and rightly so, and those of us who reject authoritarian solutions have to step away from you and tell you that you're wrong. We have NOTHING TO FEAR from a political statement, even a terrible one!

Sat, 2016-09-17 02:32

Ken Burch

She should have confronted the guy about the fact that Trump is leading a hate campaign, not told him to take the hat off. Making it about the hat was the only way she could give the guy the chance to pretend he was a victim.

That said...the guy did come off as exactly the sort who makes anonymous comments about You Tube videos.

Sat, 2016-09-17 02:34

6079_Smith_W

I think she was out of line too, in getting physical and insisting he leave.

I also don't think we necessarily need to treat it like it is a movement, especially with a fuzzy pejorative term like "social justice warriors".

I roll my eyes when I hear Jerry Seinfeld and John Cleese complaining about being driven off campuses by the politically correct.

It is one thing to correctly call bad and intolerant behaviour for what it is. Another to link it to groups and causes who for the most part are just as supportive of free expression as the rest of us.

And that bad behaviour and intolerance is hardly exclusive to the left.

Sat, 2016-09-17 04:38

Boze

Quote:
She should have confronted the guy about the fact that Trump is leading a hate campaign, not told him to take the hat off. Making it about the hat was the only way she could give the guy the chance to pretend he was a victim.

Exactly!

Quote:
That said...the guy did come off as exactly the sort who makes anonymous comments about You Tube videos.

In what way...I thought the guy did pretty much nothing except stand there and let the guy holding the camera do most of the talking.

Quote:
It is one thing to correctly call bad and intolerant behaviour for what it is. Another to link it to groups and causes who for the most part are just as supportive of free expression as the rest of us.

And that bad behaviour and intolerance is hardly exclusive to the left.

Of course, but the left is supposed to be the side that stands against censorship and intolerance.

And I agree, it's not a movement, insofar as it exists at all it's overzealous, privileged individuals abusing notions of inclusivity and sensitivity so that they feel they are fighting the good fight. But authoritarians have always existed everywhere, including the left, and they have always been a problem.

Sat, 2016-09-17 13:49

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
She should have confronted the guy about the fact that Trump is leading a hate campaign, not told him to take the hat off.

There's a third option: do nothing.

I think the root of behaviour like this is the belief that if someone is wearing a Trump hat in public, and you dislike Trump, then you must do something about it. The hat is a problem, and you're the solution.

I certainly wouldn't use the term "SJW" to describe, say, a Native protest against development on their land, or workers fighting for an increase to the minimum wage.

But what term shall we use for a total stranger who feels the need to lecture you about factory farming in the supermarket checkout line, or a group that wants to ban the local Christmas parade because Santa is a heteronormative cis-sexist who promotes the use of slave labour, or an online campaign demanding new, gender-neutral names for all the chess pieces?

Sat, 2016-09-17 15:40

Boze

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
She should have confronted the guy about the fact that Trump is leading a hate campaign, not told him to take the hat off.

There's a third option: do nothing.

I think the root of behaviour like this is the belief that if someone is wearing a Trump hat in public, and you dislike Trump, then you must do something about it. The hat is a problem, and you're the solution.

I certainly wouldn't use the term "SJW" to describe, say, a Native protest against development on their land, or workers fighting for an increase to the minimum wage.

But what term shall we use for a total stranger who feels the need to lecture you about factory farming in the supermarket checkout line, or a group that wants to ban the local Christmas parade because Santa is a heteronormative cis-sexist who promotes the use of slave labour, or an online campaign demanding new, gender-neutral names for all the chess pieces?

Or somebody who starts freaking out and yelling "sexual harassment" when somebody tells her that his name is "Hugh Mungus," or somebody who freaks out at a Lyft driver for having a hula girl on his dashboard...

It's starting to happen pretty frequently. All of these incidents are from the past few weeks. And I think it's mostly due to two things. One, cameras are everywhere nowadays, so if you do something ridiculous, the whole world will know about it (on the whole, this is a positive development, but people haven't adjusted yet). Two, social justice concepts have been entering the mainstream and are being championed by people who maybe don't actually understand the concepts themselves, or aren't capable of articulating them. They know who the enemy is, but they don't have respect for the idea of dialogue with "the enemy." Or, they are simply narcissists who want something to be angry at.

Sat, 2016-09-17 16:05

NorthReport

Agree with the do nothing part Magoo.

------------------------

I notice though no one is talking about the threats against the woman which is by far a much more important issue - why is that?

Sat, 2016-09-17 16:15

#10

Mr. Magoo

If you mean "why isn't the MSM talking about it?", take a peek. They totally are.

If you mean "why is nobody here talking about it?", well, this thread isn't even 16 hours old yet and it's still in the single digits.

Sat, 2016-09-17 17:58

#11

Boze

At first I was going to say that I didn't bring it up because I feel it's obvious on a progressive board that threats are totally disgusting. But, that shouldn't be the point. You're right NorthReport. The Calgary Herald says that hundreds of people have been calling her parents home leaving threatening messages. That is actually the most important conversation to have of all. The people threatening her (or threatening the school) are the real pathological narcissists, doing things that they know are wrong because they want something to be angry at.

The MSM is talking about it, but you could read 20 different threads on different boards (or youtube comments...) and not get informed about the threats. It didn't come up in the class discussion I referred to earlier. A lot of people don't know about it...and I have to think that many of those who do are choosing not to talk about it, or they don't want to believe it is happening. Or they want to believe that people talking about the threats are just referring to nasty youtube comments or threads on reddit or 4chan (although there is no shortage of utterly vile stuff in all of those places that also crosses the line).

Sat, 2016-09-17 18:18

#12

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
At first I was going to say that I didn't bring it up because I feel it's obvious on a progressive board that threats are totally disgusting. But, that shouldn't be the point. You're right NorthReport. The Calgary Herald says that hundreds of people have been calling her parents home leaving threatening messages. That is actually the most important conversation to have of all.

Given that I can't imagine even ONE babbler coming out in support of those threats, exactly what kind of "conversation" would this be?

Wouldn't it basically just be US finding something we can be mad about?

Sun, 2016-09-18 14:13

#13

Misfit

First of all, she said that she cannot wear political slogans on her shirts either and that this was the University policy. Secondly, she did inform him that Trump represents racist, sexist views and is anti-immigration, etc. The guy with the hat stood there and laughed. His friend with the video camera argued non-stop with the woman. There is a policy at the university that the space they were entering was to be free of hateful and/or political slogans on clothing. They were given a clear explanation of why they were not allowed to wear the cap and they were enforcing the university's rules. Clearly, the two guys, the one wearing the hat and his friend who argued incessantly, were the obnoxious ones, and good for her for sticking up for herself and enforcing university policy. Yes, have rules, and then ridicule those left in charge to enforce them.

Sun, 2016-09-18 14:18

#14

Misfit

I mean, lets not focus attention to the fact that the university has the policy in place. Let's simply attack the woman.

Sun, 2016-09-18 14:30

#15

Misfit

I'm sorry. I retract my position. I only watched the video when I commented and was under the impression from the video that the University had a clear policy in place and that she was a person in charge to enforce campus policy.

Sun, 2016-09-18 15:29

#16

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
when I commented and was under the impression from the video that the University had a clear policy in place and that she was a person in charge to enforce campus policy.

She certainly did her best to give that impression.

Sun, 2016-09-18 15:36

#17

kropotkin1951

I was surprised when you said the campus had a policy of banning all political slogans because I doubt if it would survive a Charter challenge. I have no problem with someone wearing a Republican hat anymore than I would object to someone wearing a Conservative hat.

Here is a link to the Stuendt Code of Conduct.

https://www.mtroyal.ca/cs/groups/public/documents/pdf/code_of_student_co...

Mon, 2016-09-19 11:41

#18

Misfit

Krop, when I say that I retract my original position and give my reason for my mistake, that usually means that I admit that t made an error in judgement and that I retracted my original position. It does not mean for people then to continue on with my original argument. Just satin'.

Mon, 2016-09-19 11:48

#19

Misfit

For me now, the deeper issue with this is how some young guys in Canada can think it is cool and sporty to identify with Donald Trump and all the negative values he promotes. I find it so saddening and troubling.

Mon, 2016-09-19 14:53

#20

kropotkin1951

Misfit wrote:

For me now, the deeper issue with this is how some young guys in Canada can think it is cool and sporty to identify with Donald Trump and all the negative values he promotes. I find it so saddening and troubling.

There is always a minority of racist assholes to support people like that but they are not the majority. You know similar to the people in Quebec who liked Le Pen's message when she was there.

Mon, 2016-09-19 14:59

#21

Caissa

She took the bait. The best response to the hat was to ignore it.

Mon, 2016-09-19 16:25

#22

Mr. Magoo

How is a hat like that "bait"?

It's a plain red hat with the slogan of the Republican candidate written on it. There are literally millions of them.

Tue, 2016-09-20 09:22

#23

Caissa

Given the videoing of the situation, I think this was a contrived, baiting scenario.

That said I have reminded my students twice this term that the sole purpose of universities is the creation, preservation and distribution of knowledge.

Tue, 2016-09-20 10:43

#24

Boze

Caissa, it takes three seconds to pull out your phone and start recording. There are button shortcuts for it. For just such a scenario!

Believe me, I am ready to start recording at the slightest hint of a public disagreement or controversy.

Given where the recording started, I think the chances of this being a "contrived, baiting scenario" are virtually nil. It's not like the hat is something you'd never see anywhere. Not like Donald Trump is running for President of the USA or something.

Tue, 2016-09-20 11:07

#25

6079_Smith_W

Mr. Magoo wrote:

How is a hat like that "bait"?

Not that I don't think he has a right to wear the hat, and not that I think she had any right to do what she did, but of course people sometimes wear slogans to get a reaction, or at he very least to make people look and steam.

So I wouldn't go so far as to say the whole thing was contrived, and blame him for getting himself attacked, but think that is fair comment.

From her perspective, yeah. She took the bait which she should have just ignored.

Tue, 2016-09-20 11:37

#26

Misfit

No, I wouldn't say she should have ignored it. She confronted him about the inappropriateness of the hat and elaborated on all the negative connotations associated with it. I likely would have called him a creep and a jerk for wearing it and then moved on or I would have simply said nothing and then later wished that I had. However, I've also learned in life that there is such a lack of mentality in those who wear racist and sexist clothing for show, and that this behaviour is so pervasive that direct confrontation is overwhelmingly futile. The confrontation will not elevate their thinking, and there are far too many others out there that are impressed by their attire that they gain popularity by appealing to the lowest common denominator in society. They think it is cool to be an offensive asshole. I also believe that these people are so insecure that they need to debase themselves in order to feel accepted, which ultimately tends to be their own pathetic loss in life.

Tue, 2016-09-20 12:01

#27

6079_Smith_W

See, now that is exactly why I do keep a "bait" shirt. Because of my insecurity and my pathetic loss in life.

"Veterans for McCain", in case you were wondering. A classic.

On the other hand, I suppose this is just someone standing up for a good cause. No emotional problems or "cool offensive" trolling there:

Tue, 2016-09-20 12:16

#28

Misfit

Smith, please do not embarass yourself anymore by comparing McCain to Trump. Shame on you!

Tue, 2016-09-20 13:01

#29

6079_Smith_W

I didn't compare McCain to Trump.

You made a general statement about treating the wearing of slogans as a pathological condition.

(never mind that "Make America Great Again", which is the slogan we are talking about here isn't in itself a sexist or racist statement)

I am just questioning whether that condition is specific to those on the right. I wouldn't have guessed that you meant it was a mental illness specific to Trump supporters.

(edit)

and you should know by now I could care less about perceived embarrassment here. There is more than enough of that to go around.

[youtube]SrDSqODtEFM[/youtube]

Tue, 2016-09-20 13:30

#30

Boze

Misfit wrote:
No, I wouldn't say she should have ignored it. She confronted him about the inappropriateness of the hat and elaborated on all the negative connotations associated with it. I likely would have called him a creep and a jerk for wearing it and then moved on or I would have simply said nothing and then later wished that I had. However, I've also learned in life that there is such a lack of mentality in those who wear racist and sexist clothing for show, and that this behaviour is so pervasive that direct confrontation is overwhelmingly futile. The confrontation will not elevate their thinking, and there are far too many others out there that are impressed by their attire that they gain popularity by appealing to the lowest common denominator in society. They think it is cool to be an offensive asshole. I also believe that these people are so insecure that they need to debase themselves in order to feel accepted, which ultimately tends to be their own pathetic loss in life.

Magoo, I believe this may be what you were referring to upthread.

We're talking about a hat endorsing one of the two major party candidates for US. Not a swastika. I highly doubt that you actually deal with people in this manner IRL though. Do you flip off the driver of every car sporting a right-wing bumper sticker too?

Tue, 2016-09-20 13:36

#31

6079_Smith_W

I think it comes down to the contrast between candidate and supporters.

Does Trump deserve to be called out for his actions? Absolutely.

When it comes to supporters, I think it is fair to ask them if they have considered what they are supporting. To automatically assume that they are racists though? Over the line, IMO.

And in saying that, I'd add that I think it was fair, if not perhaps smart, for Clinton to make the statement she did about Trump supporters. After all, there have been assaults, and one of those supporters is David Duke.

Tue, 2016-09-20 13:49

#32

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I am not sure what your point was about this t-shirt. It is one of my all time favourites, my mother-in-law gave one to me as a present but sadly it wore out after years of use.

Tue, 2016-09-20 13:56

#33

6079_Smith_W

I like it too k. I actually got one for my father-in-law.

My point is questioning the notion that anyone who shows their politics or beliefs openly is just doing so to get a rise out of others in order to fill the empty hole in their barren, pointless lives.

Or if the presumption is that only those who have slogans we disagree with are sad, soulless trolls.

Tue, 2016-09-20 14:20

#34

Misfit

Nobody said that, Smith, and even you should know better than that. I specifically referred to racist and sexist slogans. This is a thread about Donald Trump, and cap with his campaign slogan on it.

Tue, 2016-09-20 14:27

#35

6079_Smith_W

Nobody said what?

You said that what she did was appropriate, and that it was okay to call him a creep and a jerk.

(which I'd say is fair enough, but I'd probalby tell the person to fuck off even if I wasn't the one wearing the hat)

And then you started in on racist and sexist slogans. And on why you think people wear slogans because of their presumed personal issues.

Please explain what part I am misunderstanding here.

Tue, 2016-09-20 14:52

#36

Misfit

If you wear a campaign slogan or any kind of clothing with a statement on it, you are advertising to others what you stand for. For instance, if I wore a shirt with a circle and a red line crossing out a pipeline, I am advertising that I stand against pipeline expansion. If you wear a hat with Donald Trump's campaign slogan on it, you are advertising that you endorse his campaign which includes the string of pathological lies and racist and sexist positions that he has based his campaign on. And Donald Trump certainly does appeal to the lowest common denominator in society. The brat had the right to wear it and show off his pathetic value system for all the world to see, and the young lady had the right to call him out for what the hat represents. And for me, on the surface, McCain's campaign shirt is a classic, but if it offended the First Nation's community, and they expressed such displeasure in it's existence, then the campaign shirt, to me anyway, becomes less funny. The question becomes who do you want to provoke and why? Let's say the First Nations community did react to it. There are those who would wear it anyway despite the displeasure from the FN community claiming it is freedom of speech and their right to do whatever they want. Then there are others who would put the shirt away because while they have the freedom of speech to wear whatever they want, they are sensitive enough to the fact that the hurt that they are causing to some is not worth the other issues to the McCain campaign agenda they wish to promote with the wearing of the shirt.

Tue, 2016-09-20 15:03

#37

Misfit

When I was in grade school, I wore a shirt to school which said that "equality for women begins in the boardrooms of our nations." I was banned from the school administration from wearing the shirt, but that is another issue. So you are saying that I wore that shirt simply to fill a hole in my barren pointless life. And you are twisting the meaning of my words which were very specific and twisting them into your convoluted, meaningless, generalizations, and I am not going to discuss this with you anymore. She had the right to speak up and confront him about the racism and sexism behind the campaign slogan. I would say that she went too far by insisting that he take the hat off, but she was within her right to confront him and try to shame him anyway.

Tue, 2016-09-20 16:16

#38

6079_Smith_W

Misfit wrote:

So you are saying that I wore that shirt simply to fill a hole in my barren pointless life.

No, I don't think that at all; I strongly disagree with that statement, as a matter of fact. That's why I posted the pic of that shirt.

But that is what you said at #25, which is why I asked if you think it applies to everyone who wears a slogan, or just those who wear slogans you disagree with.

As for her challenging him about that hat, sure I think it is allowed; I said so, as a matter of fact. And I think it is fair to challenge him on the values of the person he is supporting.

Assuming that all people who support Trump are themselves expressing sexism and racism though? That is a bit of a stretch. Does that include disgruntled Bernie supporters (of which there are a few) who have decided that is their best option? People do support a candidate for a wide variety of reasons, after all.

Tue, 2016-09-20 16:33

#39

Boze

Support for Donald Trump is "inappropriate"!

Misfit wrote:
When I was in grade school, I wore a shirt to school which said that "equality for women begins in the boardrooms of our nations." I was banned from the school administration from wearing the shirt, but that is another issue. So you are saying that I wore that shirt simply to fill a hole in my barren pointless life. And you are twisting the meaning of my words which were very specific and twisting them into your convoluted, meaningless, generalizations, and I am not going to discuss this with you anymore. She had the right to speak up and confront him about the racism and sexism behind the campaign slogan. I would say that she went too far by insisting that he take the hat off, but she was within her right to confront him and try to shame him anyway.

Of course, she's within her rights to try and start a dialogue. But what you're suggesting seems foolhardy at best, pathological at worst. You're making no distinction between support for Trump's candidacy and support for everything that he's said, and you're encouraging extremely divisive rhetoric. I've always believed that you can attack someone's ideas without attacking them as a person, but you've identified this guy as a "brat" with a "pathetic value system" who should be "shamed" based merely on the fact that he wears a Trump hat. There's nothing racist or sexist about the campaign slogan itself - "Make America Great Again" is pretty value-neutral. What's racist and sexist is Trump himself, and the other things Trump has said. Essentially you're making about half of all Americans who will cast a vote for President into "the enemy." Trump is more than likely going to get, give or take a few percentage points, about half of all the votes cast for President this November.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:07

#40

Misfit

Only Smith can take my words from post #25 "however, I've also learned in life that there is such a lack of mentality in those who wear racist and sexist clothing for show, and that this behaviour is so pervasive that direct confrontation is overwhelmingly futile." to really mean...quote Smith's post #32: "...anyone who shows their politics or beliefs openly is doing so to get a rise out of others in order to fill the empty hole in their barren and pointless lives...those who have slogans we disagree with are sad, soulless trolls." Whereas I speak specifically about racist and sexist slogans, Smith purposefully distorts what I said to mean anything I personally disagree with, which is blatantly and patently false. Smith, have you applied to campaign and strategize for Trump? He needs more good liars.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:19

#41

6079_Smith_W

I'm going by your whole comment, Misfit.

I think people can read it for themselves and decide how accurate my reading of it is.

As for my asking for clarification of what you DID mean, and the assumption that anyone who would wear a Trump slogan is automatically doing it for the reasons you say, I'll leave that as an open question too.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:21

#42

Misfit

Post #25 is very clear that it is about racist and sexist slogans and about young people feeling that they need to feel cool and popular by sporting them.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:27

#43

6079_Smith_W

If we were talking about an explicitly sexist or racist hat I'd be inclined to agree with you, in some cases. I think there are some who do it because they just don't give a shit.

Problem is "Make America Great Again" isn't exactly "Ass, Gas or Grass".

It isn't even a confederate flag, for that matter.

And as much as you or I don't like Donald Trump, there are plenty who support him who do not do so for the reasons you claim.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:28

#44

Misfit

In fact, during the last federal election, I posted my disdain at those who think it is funny to deface other partys' campaign signs. Apparently, many people claim that it is their freedom of speech to do so. I find it abhorrent, reprehensible, and disgusting. So, this has nothing to do with criticizing views that are different than my own. This thread is specific to calling out racism and bigotry when faced with it.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:32

#45

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
No, I wouldn't say she should have ignored it. She confronted him about the inappropriateness of the hat

I think this sort of thing is exactly where the problems begin.

You don't need to agree with everyone's hats and their wacky ideas, but there's nothing "inappropriate" about wearing a hat that supports a candidate, even if they're a right wing candidate.

But before you can put some hat person on blast, it's necessary to convince yourself that the hat just committed a crime, and Gotham needs you to step in and make the citizen's arrest.

The idea that you cannot simply (and silently) diagree with a hat, or a t-shirt, or a bumper sticker without having to name, shame and denounce is kind of a new, MIllenial thing, I think.

Quote:
When it comes to supporters, I think it is fair to ask them if they have considered what they are supporting.

I would agree that you're well within your rights to ask this, but I'm still wondering what makes that an important thing to do?

And I really think this is a big part of why "SJWs" are called "SJWs". Are you REALLY and honestly just trying to open up a "dialog" and perhaps persuade someone to support the other candidate? Or are you looking to be aggrieved, and maybe just a li'l oppressed, too?

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:35

#46

Misfit

He really hasn't launched much of an anything else kind of campaign that I've seen anyway. In fact, I've never seen a campaign before where the economy, deficit, military spending, taxes, social programs, and other programs have received so little attention. He has created a perpetual gong show.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:37

#47

6079_Smith_W

I think some do it for both reasons, Magoo.

And I think in this case it was pretty clear where she was coming from, given what she did.

But I do think it is fair to talk to people wearing slogans about why they do so. I think that goes double for this race, and the discrepancy between the slogan on the hat, and what Trump is saying and doing.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:48

#48

Misfit

And Mr. Magoo, I think this is why I said in Post #25 that confrontation is ultimately futile. You aren't going to change their viewpoints anyway with direct confrontation. Again, and talking about racist and sexist slogans only please, as long as these young people think that it is sporty and cool and will make them more popular, they are going to wear them. And I don't know how to make racisism, sexism, and bigotry unhip and uncool.

Tue, 2016-09-20 17:58

#49

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Again, and talking about racist and sexist slogans only please

We couldn't have this thread, if it were restricted to "racist and sexist slogans only". Or what would we discuss?

There's nothing racist or sexist about "Make America Great Again". If that were Jill Stein's campaign slogan, would you agree that it's inappropriate? Imagine that it's the exact same four words.

If it's not the slogan itself, and it's (presumably) not the hat, that only leaves the association with Trump. And I hope you're not really suggesting that it's inappropriate for someone to support (or just ironically support) the Republican candidate for President. I wouldn't vote for the guy either, but can we not try to, well, "trump" this up into some kind of swastikas and stormtroopers thing? Again, that's where it all goes for a silly. "He supports Trump, therefore he clearly wants to see lynchings come back again."

It's. A. Hat. No further action required.

Tue, 2016-09-20 19:06

#50

Misfit

Magoo, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. The Confederate flag to some is just an innocent and innocuous symbol of the south as well. And I can sit here and say it is just a flag of a diagonal cross with stars that has a lot of historical significance in United States history, and I would be right. However, like the campaign slogan, there is a much deeper meaning to the flag which transcends the surface obvious which some find to be disgraceful and offensive. And like the campaign slogan, it is NOT your place to decide how everyone must universally interpret what meaning the Confederate flag is to have. Trump does not have a campaign platform on anything other than fear and hatred towards those he perceives to be different from himself. Last week, he laid out a maternity benefit program. That was the very first program announcement he has come out with. And I highly doubt this kid from Calgary is wearing the hat to show his support for expectant mothers in the United States. In the conspicuous absence of any real campaign platform being offered, there are very few alternative possibilities left to choose from other than the bigotry he represents.

Tue, 2016-09-20 19:12

#51

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Magoo, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I'm happy to see that at least some people are.

Quote:
The Confederate flag

I'll just stop you right there. There was no confederate flag on that hat, just as there was no swastika on that hat. What if we just talk about the four words on that hat?

Quote:
And like the campaign slogan, it is NOT your place to decide how everyone must universally interpret what meaning the Confederate flag is to have.

I haven't been suggesting that anyone has to like it.

I'm suggesting that pretending it's some form of oppression, or pretending that there's no place for it in civil society, or pretending that it makes a space into an "unsafe" space for unnamed persons, or pretending that it's been pre-forbidden by the President of the University is just imaginary silly-talk.

The Mount Royal University hat incident and the fallout

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